this is the part where I write my name. ([info]twospots) wrote in [info]pollanesque,
The link to the "Foodie Food Storage" article got me wishing I had more info about a few things. Sharon Astyk writes:

[I]t is worth remembering that the peasant cuisines that we base much of our best food upon never contained meat, milk and eggs in the quantities we have them now, never ate them all year round. That is, no one ever ate osso buco nightly, or cassoulet daily. And the cassoulet was born as a way to extend small amounts of meat with beans and other foods. [...]

So the first reality of food storage is that we’re headed back to the peasant cusines - as they existed for ordinary people. [...] The cookbooks are written mostly for Americans and their huge, seasonless quantities of milk, eggs and meat, and the restaurant menus emphasize these foods that were once special. [emphasis mine]


Where does one find information about "peasant cuisines as they existed for ordinary people"? I've seen lots of book and articles that refer to this, but little in the way of a comprehensive resource. Maybe there's a great book out there that I've missed; my googling isn't turning up much other than lists of seasonal veggies and how-to-can articles.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where this info is hiding? Not as background to support theoretical arguments, but perhaps a "Guide to"? My other thought is that perhaps someone's written a historical study of, say, "Food Storage and Preparation in Ontario, 1850-1950."

I would far prefer to hear about info for northern climes. Last frost here is not until mid-May.

ETA: Something like Anglo-Saxon food and drink : production, processing, distribution and consumption (Ann Hagen; Oxbow Books/Anglo-Saxon Books, 2006) would be great--but most stuff like this seems either very general (more sociology, less specific) or not really useful in northern North America...
Tags: questions: cooking, questions: preserving, questions: storage, region: canada

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[info]amyura

January 25 2009, 22:19:16 UTC 3 years ago

Hmm....that's odd to me, from my own experience eating locally and in season. I've found that it's been fairly easy to get milk, eggs and meat year round, but that vegetables are far more sensitive to the calendar. I live in New England, FWIW. This time of year I'm replying on my freezer stash of veggies (at this point mostly dark leafy greens that I froze last June, and corn from the whole season), and then the more common winter veggies-- beets, winter squash, turnips. Fruits right now are limited to the last of the season cranberries and apples, plus whatever I've got left frozen.

As far as "traditional peasant foods," one thing I've found very useful for me is looking at local history museums and historical documents-- extremely easy for me since I live one town away from Plymouth, MA and the well-researched Plimoth Plantation. Also, crappy as it is, there is sort of a cannon of "traditional New England cuisine." Things like fish, various types of pork, corn (just what every American needs, right?), beans, molasses, cranberries, blueberries, anadama bread, sharp cheddar, maple syrup for a sweetener. So maybe get familiar with what's native to your area and then seek out (or develop your own) recipes for what you've got?

I know this is getting long, sorry about that, but one last thing is that I got to where I am with my family's diet in steps. First I went all natural (this was about five or six years ago), cutting out artificial colors, flavors, preservatives and things like MSG. Then I worked on getting rid of corn derivatives and getting as much organic as possible, until I was getting almost nothing at the local supermarket. Last year we made the big leap to "as local as possible," joining CSAs for veggies and meat, and getting delivery from a local dairy. And now I'm working on refining that, getting even more local, and making more from scratch.

[info]twospots

January 25 2009, 22:38:27 UTC 3 years ago

I think that Astyk's point is that, historically, some things (especially meat/dairy) were not nearly as common as they are now, rather than that milk/eggs/meat are seasonal: economic rather than seasonal limitations.

And yes, I certainly do know what is in season when here, but also I know that our local "traditional cuisine" is... er... a bit idealized. I've certainly picked up bits and pieces here and there from various historical sources; I was just wondering whether anyone has done any more comprehensive work on the topic in the way that historians seem to have descended, for example, on medieval or Roman food habits.

[info]sheafrotherdon

January 25 2009, 22:45:47 UTC 3 years ago Edited:  January 25 2009, 22:46:08 UTC

Mark Bittman's new book, [Food Matters], sounds right up your alley. He's advocating a way of eating that relies on much less animal protein, as the current rate of consumption - especially in the US - is completely unsustainable. He spends quite a bit of time talking about the way in which people raised and used vegetables, fruits, grains, and animals before WWII, and also - crucially - includes 77 recipes at the end of the book that demonstrate how to eat the way he's advocating.

Boiled down to its essence, his approach is - plants first. Whatever meal you consume, make sure the vast majority of it is constituted from plants of some kind or another, and that animal proteins are not the focus on the dish. (He's made the decision for himself to be more or less vegan until dinner time, and then to eat whatever he likes so long as he's following the 'mostly plants' guideline.) I followed his guidelines for a frittata yesterday, for example. Where I would usually eat an egg and cheese omlette, using two eggs in one serving, I instead sauteed a red pepper, a green pepper, onion, and a sliced sweet potato in a little oil, and poured two beaten eggs over the whole thing when the veggies were soft. I ate half for dinner, so the majority of my meal was vegetable based, and my animal protein was cut by half.

Does this help?

[info]twospots

January 25 2009, 23:27:26 UTC 3 years ago

Yes! That book is on my wishlist, but perhaps I had better move it up the list a bit. And yes, it sounds like he does some of what I'm looking for: some kind of decently-researched historical perspective.

[info]sheafrotherdon

January 25 2009, 23:34:14 UTC 3 years ago

This might be worth looking at? http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=TlIFy8jEppYC&dq=social+history+of+food&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=raMxWSrPFs&sig=KDErBFa-8MrZEzu2G6dBMrTGMms&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPR5,M1

That said, I have a government-issued guide to food preparation and storage, published in Britain in the 1930s, and it advises boiling carrots for up to an hour. So perhaps Britain isn't the way to go . . .

[info]twospots

January 25 2009, 23:49:43 UTC 3 years ago

Ooh, yes, that does look interesting. I think that the overboiling thing is more characteristic of the 30s that of Britain, maybe. Both my grandmothers (who learned to cook in the 20s and 30s in New York City and the wilds of northern Ontario) were very fond of well-boiled veggies...

[info]stockpot

January 25 2009, 22:51:26 UTC 3 years ago

Hi, "peasant food" has varied tremendously from culture to culture and throughout time so I don't know if it could be said to be one category. I really like the work of Weston A Price and feel MUCH healthier eating a traditional northern european diet than modern "health" diets.

Here are some links:

http://www.westonaprice.org/ (they have a book that is like a guide with recipes http://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Traditions-Challenges-Politically-Dictocrats/dp/0967089735/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232923635&sr=8-1)

http://www.wisefoodways.com/ (her book is one of the best books I have ever bought)

and here are some crazy old cookery books that are quite hard to read, but may give you ideas http://www.thousandeggs.com/cookbooks.html#ENGLISH

I don't know if thats the kind of thing you were looking for?

[info]twospots

January 25 2009, 23:24:36 UTC 3 years ago

Hi, "peasant food" has varied tremendously from culture to culture and throughout time so I don't know if it could be said to be one category.

Yes, absolutely. That said, my preliminary search has turned up very little in terms of info on *any* lower-class cuisine (a common historiographical problem), so anything in a relatively northern clime would be interesting.

I don't know if thats the kind of thing you were looking for?

Yes, especially the old cookbooks link! I will have to take a closer look at the others. A number of the "eat like your ancestors" books I've seen tend to do a lot of handwavy stuff about what was actually eaten, and base their recommendations on spotty or nonexistant research. I'm mostly hoping to find some that are a bit more sound.

[info]scout1222

January 26 2009, 02:05:43 UTC 3 years ago

In regards to your last paragraph - this is exactly how I felt after finishing Pollan's In Defense of Food. Okay, great grandma is dead, how do I figure out how she used to eat? =p

[info]rainbow

January 26 2009, 04:43:07 UTC 3 years ago

Okay, great grandma is dead, how do I figure out how she used to eat?

one way to research it is to find books written 100-150 years ago where your forebears lived, and read about every day foods there, either in novels, receipt books, household management books, etc.

[info]breakableheart

January 25 2009, 23:38:01 UTC 3 years ago

As a person who cooks quite a bit, I have to say the Nourishing Traditions book is meh. It's like Sally Fallon decided to follow the theoretical science of "traditional" foods, but forgot to follow the actual traditions (and - most important - taste). The recipes I've tried have been so-so and relatively flavorless.

[info]witchchild

January 26 2009, 16:44:24 UTC 3 years ago

I've started going a little more TF recently after having read Nina Planck's Real Food. (incidentally, community readers who have not picked this up yet should, as it had an overt influence on some of Pollan's work.) Got NT over the weekend and have also been reading/posting on a TF forum. Just looking at what is traditional for me to eat at Christmas hearkens back to what would have been eaten in Sweden (my family's country of origin) for thousands of years: lots of pork, cheese, cucumbers in vinegar, liverpastej (pate), dark bread, etc.

[info]cis

January 25 2009, 23:22:22 UTC 3 years ago

I suppose the problem with learning about "peasant cuisines as they existed for ordinary people" is that the old cookbooks we have are more often written for the middle classes at a time when meat was more abundant, or discuss only the more lavish, dinner-party-food type recipes.

My parents use an ancient falling-apart book called something like "ricette regionali d'italia" which is amazingly comprehensive (the number of minestrone variations alone!) and full of low-meat or no-meat recipes. It's possible that there are equivalent collections for different countries - I suppose the special thing about italy is that, having only been unified in the nineteenth-century, there was as it were a nationalist reason to record local peasant cuisine as a marker of identity.

The only book I can really think of that functions as a study into traditional food life is Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery, which obviously is very limited in its remit and doesn't cover the limitations of the seasonal diet very much, though it is fascinating. But there seems to be a greater focus in history these days on material culture, etc, so maybe that kind of research will soon appear?

[info]twospots

January 25 2009, 23:32:00 UTC 3 years ago

the problem with learning about "peasant cuisines as they existed for ordinary people" is that the old cookbooks we have are more often written for the middle classes at a time when meat was more abundant, or discuss only the more lavish, dinner-party-food type recipes.

Yes, exactly. Same problem with most social history, really: the lives of ordinary people are much less documented, and what did exist tends to disappear more quickly (even the material stuff, like clothes and tools).

so maybe that kind of research will soon appear?

Oh, I hope so! Perhaps I ought to go back for a PhD and do that "Food Storage and Preparation in Ontario, 1850-1950." :)

[info]belleweather

January 25 2009, 23:41:40 UTC 3 years ago

www.foodtimeline.org is probably the best starting place you could have. Check it out.

I'm really becoming less and less a fan of Sharon Astyk, which makes me really sad because I used to have a blog-crush on her.

But as far as storing eggs and butter and cheese, I think she's out of her mind. My experience is that first, these are things that store exceedingly well as long as you store them correctly even without refrigeration -- cheese, for instance, would HAVE to store well since it's an aged product! -- and that second, they continue to be available all year round. For instance, my friends with city chickens still get eggs in the winter and while winter milk isn't as rich and creamy it's certainly still available.

Don't get me wrong, I think her point is a good one -- we've got to give up the idea that we can eat pasta margarita in the winter or make pesto in the spring. But the local cuisine that is available to people who live in the north in the winter is by necessity going to run high toward meat (frozen or preserved), root veggies, dried beans, pickled/canned food, cheese, and beer because you cannot grow anything under 3-4 feet of snow. And that's OKAY. You can be a foodie eating that sort of thing 3 months out of the year. People have been doing it for years.

[info]twospots

January 25 2009, 23:52:57 UTC 3 years ago

Oh, that website is cool! Thanks very much.

And yes, I agree that Astyk's argument is a bit... questionable at times. It was more that she--like so many others--was going "blah blah blah traditions," which prompted me to start poking around to see whether there were actually any reliable, comprehensive sources for said traditions. So far, nothing comprehensive, but lots of reliable-looking interesting tidbits.

[info]albionwood

January 26 2009, 00:55:35 UTC 3 years ago

Oh, dear, I just noticed she uses the "n-word" ("never")... That's a big red flag when talking history. Still, her overall point has merit.

Even some of our supposedly "traditional" ways of eating don't always follow seasonal patterns. When, for example, did green beans become a traditional part of a Thanksgiving feast? I would be very surprised to learn that the Pilgrims were able to grow fresh beans in late November!

[info]albionwood

January 26 2009, 00:31:16 UTC 3 years ago

It used to be quite difficult to find well-researched information on what ordinary people ate/wore/did, but in the last couple of decades there's been a lot more attention paid to that aspect of history. And if you're interested specifically in late 19th to early 20th century, there's a lot of information available. Most of it probably hasn't appeared in popular books yet, so it will take more effort to locate, but it's out there. I wouldn't be surprised to learn someone has written exactly what you're looking for as a Master's or PhD thesis. Most of my history-foodie friends are medievalists but I'll check to see if maybe they know of something useful.

[info]twospots

January 26 2009, 00:54:13 UTC 3 years ago

Yeah, I have poked about at the university libraries here, but didn't turn up much scholarly (and the one book about Canada had some dodgy reviews). I haven't taken a look at the databases yet, though, because... well, because I don't have time to actually start researching a paper on this at the moment! I suspect that much of the social history stuff is still, as you said, in the thesis-and-article stage (which leaves hope that there are perhaps some books forthcoming).

But academic leads would be wonderful, especially since, despite having done a whole lot of historical research for my thesis, I'm not a trained historian. Anyway, yeah: If you're querying academics who might know, I'm interested in 18C & 19C, Canada or places with similar climate. Also, for fun, Europe, esp. Britain or Finland.

[info]breakableheart

January 26 2009, 00:33:10 UTC 3 years ago

I'm not sure how "traditional" or "peasant" these cookbooks are, but I've found a lot of success with my pre-1975 Joy Of Cooking and a book called "The Silver Spoon" (Italian cookbook). I love the Silver Spoon cookbook because generally I can look up just about any random item I get in my CSA box and find a couple yummy ideas on what to cook! The only gaps seem to be the more American squashes and yam/sweet potatoes. Which is fine, I have 304858 ways to cook those things.

I find the CSA (which is a local box) keeps me pretty honest as far as the "local, in season" thing is concerned.

[info]kitchenwitch

January 26 2009, 03:43:41 UTC 3 years ago

I'll echo what [info]amyura said about the availability of meat, dairy, and eggs. I'm in the Midwest, and those are the things I can find locally, year-round.

It's probably too flippant of an answer, but I'll bet that what the peasants ate was whatever the heck they could get their hands on. ;)

I don't have any book suggestions except for fiction and memoirs! I'm a big fan of Laura Ingalls Wilder's books, and she talks a lot about food. Do you have any local authors who write or have written memoirs/local historical fiction? Obviously, the older the book, the more accurate it'll probably be in terms of what was eaten when.

I just read Feeding Nelson's Navy, which describes the logistics and content of feeding the British navy during Lord Nelson's era (though it covers more than that). Their diets were probably more varied and nutritious than the average citizen's, but it's a fascinating read and gives a bit of a picture of what was available in terms of long-term storage in the 1700s.

I wonder if The History of Food would be of interest to you. It's a huge work, and although I owned it for ages I never cracked it open.

[info]lacylu42

January 26 2009, 14:17:16 UTC 3 years ago

I don't have any personal experience with any of them, but for what it's worth, I've heard good things about Amish cookbooks of all stripes. Not sure there are many (any?) Amish in Ontario or environs, but I imagine they would give you good examples of traditional, simple meals.

Another resource that is not strictly about food are the Foxfire books and newsletters. See if you can find some at your library, because the essays are fascinating and informative. They're not all "how-to" essays, but they are a great snapshot of rural, traditional life (specifically in Appalachia). It goes over everything from how to build a still to how to hunt rabbits — and necessarily covers a lot of what traditional peoples ate and how. Interesting stuff.

[info]albionwood

January 26 2009, 22:08:58 UTC 3 years ago

Okay, some of my F-list recommendations:

"Germinal" [Emil Zola novel, 1885] has quite a bit on what miners in northern France ate.

when I did a 19th c. dinner, I used Fanny Farmer as a primary source (I have a replica edition. what, doesnt everybody? ;)) while it wasnt peasant food per se, it was intended as middle class housewifery type food.

I haven't read it, but ran across http://www.amazon.com/Food-Cooking-19th-Century-Britain/dp/1850740852

A couple of interesting scraps:
http://www.international.inra.fr/press/diet_of_workers_19th_century
There's not much on that page except a summary of the study, which focuses on urban workers as opposed to the rural poor, but it mentions the transition from a soup-based diet to a meat-based diet during that century.

The Wikipedia article on European cuisine quotes Fernand Braudel, _Civilization & Capitalism, 15-18th Centuries, Vol 1: The Structures of Everyday Life_ for its summary of the European diet. Presumably Braudel has his own primary sources.

Oddly enough, at the same time that common people were getting more of a chance to eat meat, the vegetarian movement was picking up steam. The word "vegetarian" in English dates from 1847.

[info]twospots

January 31 2009, 00:53:43 UTC 3 years ago

Thanks very much for looking into this!
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